[Fmpro] Fair Price

Sun Sep 9 17:39:53 GMT 2007

YEA!! I couldn’t agree more. I don’t know how one goes about polling a group
to find data to decide what would be the minimum composer scale, but
absolutely it should be in place! For me, for the creative fee, for film
score, broadway or similar orchestral music, I try and shoot for $3000.00
per minute. Keep in mind that’s what I think is fair for 1 minute of
orchestral music creative fee, not counting any backend. Of course, in
reality, it happens (for me so far in my career) only once in a while and I
find myself bending over backwards and in positions the human anatomy was
never meant to go =(

I think because there is such a wide spectrum of types of jobs, there is
also a need for a wide spectrum of pay rates. Just as AFM has many different
scales for different kinds of jobs and situations we would need to really
dig into the nitty gritty and decide for each situation what is reasonable.
Obviously a non national radio spot can't demand the same that a big budget
feature film. Minute to minute it wont compare. 

And just making an agreement that yea none of us here will do any work that
is for less isn’t enough either. The unions are able to enforce that by
having the ability of this position: 1. the union guarantees much goodness
for its musician's that otherwise they would have a much more difficult
lifestyle (usually it works, of course there are always exceptions and
corruption is inherent in any organization on some level) 2. If you get
caught doing a non union job the union has the ability to smack you around,
either with fines, or kicking you out of the union making you untouchable
for any further union work, or in some rare cases legal action against you.

So the union offers many things that the individuals either can't or would
have a hard time getting. Most professional gigs have become union because
the benefits have traditionally been good for those musicians. Musicians are
penalized severely in situations where there are too many non union gigs
happening that threaten the stability of the union. (I.e. in Seattle in an
attempt to break the scab orchestra situation the union announced it will
fine any musician $50,000.00 for participating in non union gigs. This is a
rare and extreme situation, and I am not aware of anyone being fined
actually. In general most small gigs are overlooked (club dates, wedding
circuit, parties etc) and the focus on enforcing is on the big stuff

THE OTHER THING that the union does, and yes today it's not doing so hot
because of many reasons, is lobbying. AFM lobbyists work on seemingly small
issues (like recently with Delta air lines they refused to let musicians
bring on board their instruments, since 9/11, and so the union called for a
boycott on Delta and then they sat down with the airline and got them to
change their policy) to the very large working with congress and RIAA and
other powers that be to do their best to ensure a quality of life that is
decent for its members.

Basically a simple agreement of this list wont do, because in order for
people to all say OK we wont take less then this XX amount per minute or
whatnot, we need protections and guarantees that when we say that to the
employer they wont have an option of taking someone else locally, and they
will have incentive from lobbyist agreements to not ship it overseas

I do honestly believe tho, that a union is the answer to all the woes I have
ever seen posted on this list. I think that between legal representation,
industry lobbying, member benefits, and all the other aspects of what a
union could and should be we would all see our lives become better, more
fulfilling, and allow us to make better money and not be treated like the
red-headed step child.

=)

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com
[mailto:fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com] On Behalf Of leshurdle
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 12:27 PM
To: fmpro at nxport.com
Subject: [Fmpro] Fair Price

Hi Chris

If there should be equality of 'pay' for musicians how about the same  
thing for composers ?

E.G.........

1	A minimum of X $$'s per cue
2	A minimum of X $$'s per sync fee

What does anyone/everyone think those numbers should be...... and  
given the Library Music game...... how can one insure the sub-pubs  
etc will adhere to the minimums in a blanket license agreement.

If this list isn't able to come up with a $$ amount and ALL of the  
composers here guarantee to STICK TO THE AMOUNT  then why trouble  
ourselves with what happens overseas?

L

On Sep 8, 2007, at 4:11 PM, leshurdle wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
> Let me see ............
>
> On Sep 8, 2007, at 3:50 PM, Chris Alpiar wrote:
>
>> How specifically were you lied to by the UK Musicians Union?
>
> It would take pages, but in a nutshell........... performers right
> money was paid 'for' performers in the UK since 1945... this was for
> broadcasts.  The union  refused to pay session men by using the
> language of the deal to include 'everyone'.
> In fact 'everyone did benefit from the payment..............  Many
> MILLIONS of pounds......... except those musicians who it was
> intended for... studio guys.
>
> Zippo for us... but I understand, like all wimpy staff, the staff are
> very well covered.
>
> Today, even though UK guys now get paid ... er hum !!....... US
> musicians do not get paid via UK performers rights, hence, the AFM/
> Aftra have declared they will not pay UK guys..............  where
> does one start?
>>
>> I am not saying that the current unions work for everyone, anymore
>> then
>> Mark's ideals worked in the Soviet Union, but it’s the IDEALS we
>> must stand
>> by and demand or else we just contribute to the continued spiral  
>> down.
>
> In recent history it started when the jerks on this list began to
> give away their mechanical rights for a few bucks up front thereby
> causing great stress to those who wanted to maintain rights and  
> IDEALS.
>
> So let's get real... it is our own who cause the downward spiral.
>> In
>> every EVERY organization corruption is an inherant aspect. I don’t
>> like to
>> hear you were ripped off, but saying FU to the whole thing and
>> supporting
>> anarchy will not get you anything either
>
> Sadly, I wish I could have joined the throng who worked for cash
> today, screw tomorrow.
> I stood by 'right' and it got me nowhere.
>>
>>> Dozens of jobs these days for a rock production......  the
>>> band, the sidemen, the video folk, the sound crew, the
>>> catering crew, makeup, the guys who travel . riggers/drivers
>>> etc...... the folks who sell concessions, the folks who sell
>>> the tickets, the folks who print the tickets, the folks who
>>> clean the auditorium etc etc..... I'm sure you get my point.
>>
>> Umm if you ever EVER find a rock concert that hires anyone from out
>> of town
>> much less out of country for anything other then the band and its
>> entourage
>> please tell me I will come take pictures lol
>
> Concessions, printers, DJ's & radio airplay to promote etc etc.
>
> The real point is Chris... those with the power to 'hype' will do
> whatever they want and film is just another hype.
>
> L
>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com
>>> [mailto:fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com] On Behalf
>>> Of leshurdle
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 6:39 PM
>>> To: fmpro at nxport.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Fmpro] One step further.......scab?
>>>
>>> Hi Chris,
>>>
>>> Taking some of your words.
>>> On Sep 8, 2007, at 2:25 PM, Chris Alpiar wrote:
>>>
>>>> A film production is very very different from a rock band
>>> les, it isnt
>>>> realistic to compare them. We are talking about hundreds of
>>> jobs for
>>>> one film.
>>>
>>> Dozens of jobs these days for a rock production......  the
>>> band, the sidemen, the video folk, the sound crew, the
>>> catering crew, makeup, the guys who travel . riggers/drivers
>>> etc...... the folks who sell concessions, the folks who sell
>>> the tickets, the folks who print the tickets, the folks who
>>> clean the auditorium etc etc..... I'm sure you get my point.
>>>
>>> NOW, you are not wrong in wanting to keep work in the US and
>>> have benefits, but let me tell you, UNIONS... ha... the UK
>>> Musician Union ripped people like me, Vic Flick. even James
>>> Ryan for MILLIONS of £pounds.... EACH !!!!!!!!!!!
>>> We have no benefits, no pension etc etc... we were lied to.
>>>
>>> So, I do understand your position and your plea.... it is
>>> very similar, as I told you weeks ago, to the position some
>>> of us took with the PRO's via the AACO......... I
>>> learned............. 'we' are not in control and don't ever
>>> think 'you' are.
>>>
>>> Sorry old chum.........
>>>
>>> Do you have any idea how many US/UK musicians travel to China
>>> every year to 'teach'?
>>>
>>> They will learn fast.... they will soon be the next 'cheap'
>>> place to get an orchestra.... why....... BIG money wants it
>>> that way........
>>> why do you think Haliberton is going to Asia [a bit of a
>>> stretch, but sim application].
>>>
>>> Les
>>>
>>>> Unions in US and UK set up realistic pay scales for the artists and
>>>> musicians to be able to expect a decent way of life and persue
>>>> their art.
>>>> That machine has in the past, and hopefully will find a way
>>> to in the
>>>> future, been a source of legal protection, life benefits,  
>>>> retirement
>>>> options, rights that we agreed that every American is deserving of.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> The Film Music Pro List is sponsored by Film Music Magazine -   
> http://www.filmmusicmag.com
>
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