[Fmpro] LSO isnt the eastern block

[Michael S Patterson]

Rick,
I do admire your zeal for the betterment of musicians but
I think that you are making an argument that doesn¹t seem
to address the scope at hand.

What type of projects do you think are using the lower rated
Orchestras? 

>From my experiences, it been low budget films, promos, and maybe some
cable TV, not big budget films. These are projects can¹t afford
the union rates.

Doesn¹t the AFM have agreements with the studio and major networks?
Aren¹t those big budget films and network shows ³union gigs?²

I assume that you feel that priced out projects just shouldn¹t have live
musicians at all.

Do you think that any composer that is scoring low budget indie films
for $3,000, $5,000...$10,000 a pop is going to feel any sympathy for
musicians complaining about a $20-$25 an hour rate?

Now this is all coming from a composer who hasn¹t broken $20,000
a year for the last 5 years. I don¹t want sympathy, I choose
to work on these low budget films and be poor. I¹m going to work as hard
as I can for as long as I can and hope that one day I break thru.

The AFM has never been able to work with me on these projects and
in the beginning I tried. If I¹m getting no help from them why should
I have any loyalty to members of the AFM.

I actually now have much more loyalty to the musicians in Prague!
$20-$25 and hour in the Czech Republic is quite a good amount
of money over there...much more than the average worker.

There is also no reason for a composer not to go outside of
the AFM. I remember that whole thing with the Russian Orchestra
and K19 ­ The Widowmaker. The touring musicians got their visas
revoked and Klaus Badelt  didn¹t get black listed or anything.
And that whole thing was much more egregious than what we¹re
talking about.

You also make it seem as if there isn¹t already a glut of out of
work musicians. By offering a $100 a session rate for low budget
projects you don¹t effect the big budget films and you actually
create more work....I feel it¹s better than $0 which is what you¹re
getting right now for these projects.

The AFM and musicians have to understand that given that these
projects can¹t afford the union rates, they are going to have to
see that work go overseas. The AFM doesn¹t even seem to want this
Work anyway!

Give me a rate that I can work with and I¹ll hire you if not,
Jit jsem do prahy. (I¹ll go to Prague)

Michael S Patterson

 


On 9/13/07 12:48 AM, "Chris Alpiar" <chris at alpiar.com> wrote:

> [OK I am trying to learn from my critics and doing my best to continue
> feeding this most excellent discussion with provocative and positive
> argument and to not get lost on ego battles. I sincerely apologize to all
> for my goading of others, my unclear words, and where I have allowed myself
> to succumb to goading lately. I care dearly about our betterment and any
> argument I pose is for its sake.]
> 
> Unions provide tremendous value to its members. As an AFM member I am
> entitled to many benefits, including free legal aid for issues related to my
> union jobs. They spend tons of money lobbying issues on behalf of the
> musicians on an industry and governmental level. I have access to an
> emergency fund and a pension plan (which is unfortunately falling apart
> currently since it is still based on CD sales...). I have the power of all
> (or most) of the professional musicians in the USA organized together as a
> unified voice. As an example: With that power a violinist in Albuquerque can
> get paid a reasonable salary or rate to have a decent life without being in
> a Hollywood "A" orchestra. The AFM consists of literally hundreds of
> guarantees that I am to be treated with dignity and paid reasonably for the
> very special and unique job that I do.
> 
> The union isn't some Jimmy Hoffa types with baseball bats who manipulate on
> behalf of the masses in order to skim millions from magical slush funds.
> (While that sounds like certain non-union organizations it's not the AFM or
> my vision of a composer's union) Of course every organization has issues,
> and the AFM is partnered with the AFL/CIO for better or for worse. But the
> AFM has maintained a really decent ethic and goal-set over the years. It is
> a bit stodgy today and needs some serious overhaul to stay in line for the
> new age, but overall it is GOOD. It is made up of people that believe in the
> goodness of music and musicians and want to help our society's members to
> all have respectful, decent lifestyles. My dues of $130 per year are roughly
> the same as my dues to FMN per year. While I LOVE all the great things that
> Mark does for us, his group for sure isn't offering anything remotely close
> to the benefits the AFM has. (Hold on flamers, that statement wasn't
> anything negative towards FMN, Mark is one of my absolute favorite people
> who works tirelessly for us, but FMN still isn't a union, so it was just a
> comparison to show that union dues isn't some exorbitant extortion)
> 
> Someone dropped the LSO in a while back on this thread but really it has
> nothing to do with the issues at hand. I am absolutely positive you cannot
> book the LSO for 1900 an hour for a 50 piece including studio and engineers
> and even copyists. It was not the LSO that was the meat of this conversation
> but the eastern European and 3rd world orchestras, who, while all very
> excellent musicians, are allowing themselves to be abused with $20/hour (and
> probably less then that even) salary and no backend. Once again it is not
> their fault, but it is wrong nonetheless. I wish we could have an
> international musicians union but since courts can't have international
> jurisdiction, it still must be dealt with nation by nation. In actuality the
> root of all the weird problems we are suffering from today is that we have
> this massive, mostly open door, international deluge of data and products
> called the internet but our world is still governed country by country. And
> of course the industry powers that be are milking it for every bit they can.
> However that is another subject for another day.
> 
> But let me assure you, this discussion is about real issues Rick, and we
> have opportunity during this changing time to step up and do something about
> it. What you suggest sounds like you gave up long ago. Every man for himself
> and step on who you need to, that is the just the way it is and there isn't
> anything I can do so Ill just live off the table scraps and nod my head. The
> problem is that this trend of what is happening today isn't going to just
> stop; it's going to keep going on and on unless we do something about it.
> 
> Try to gestalt and see where we came from 50 years ago, where we are now,
> and where these trends are leading us. It's really scary! It is leading to
> orchestras eventually having to work for so little they can't afford to keep
> the quality. At some point those amazing violinists and oboists will say
> "Screw this, I am going to be a pharmacist so I can feed my family" or
> whatever and then there will be no more orchestras. And there will be no
> more film score composers. And films will change and society will say ah
> that was cool when they used to blablabla but whatever this is here now and
> it's what they feed me. (Just as 50 years ago people wouldn't have ever
> accepted what Gwen Steffani does on stage is music or anything music
> related, but more like some freak show stripper carnival act, but hey now
> she owns Billboard and Rolling Stone. Or how 3-6 Mafia won the OSCAR last
> year for the sad, sad excuse for a song with one hook and no other musical
> qualities, and it won against the music from Crash?!... Pardon while I get
> the TUMS)
> 
> Maybe that is ok with you; to let it all fall apart, since there will
> probably be some gigs still in YOUR lifetime, even if you wont get paid the
> way you deserve you will probably still work it out. But what happens after
> that? The first step in making change is to specify issues and create
> dialog. That is being overly-idealistic? That is wasting breath? I say that
> it is up to you to choose what you want to see happen to our art and our
> livelihood. And the choices need to start being made now before it's too
> late. For me it is NOT ok for us to remain indifferent or ambivalent. I
> think the time for dialog is now and to prepare our goals and actions that
> make up our path for years to come, and ultimately our legacy
> 
> You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you will
> join us. And the world will live as one (thanks Pete for making this song
> stick in my head for the last couple days! ;)
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com
> [mailto:fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com] On Behalf Of Rick Blanc
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 1:41 AM
> To: fmpro at nxport.com
> Subject: [Fmpro] LSO and stuff
> 
>  Producers have been using the LSO for many
>  years.  And why not?  First-class product,
>  reasonable pricing.  That's it.  All this noise
>  about union, what people deserve, world order
>  etc. is all just that -- noise.  I hate to be
>  the agent of disillusionment but does anyone out
>  there really think the union gives a damn about
>  YOU.  You live, you die, who cares?  The union
>  guys have their salaries to worry about.
> 
>  The way things work is really quite simple.
>   Companies need product, sometimes good
>  product.  If a union can stand in the way of
>  their need and their product they can extort
>  some more money, if not then they can't.
>   The landscape today weakens unions because they
>  can't prevent producers from getting the product
>  they want -- somewhere.
> 
>  All this idealism and utopianism is interesting
>  maybe, but has no impact on the fundamentals:
>  union bosses have their paychecks to worry about
>  and if YOU expire tomorrow you will be known as
>  union member #### whose dues will be missed.
>   Meanwhile business continues -- as it should --
>  and first-class orchestras and musicians
>  worldwide will work and compete in an
>  international marketplace.
> 
> Rick    
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