[Fmpro] LSO isnt the eastern block

[Chris Alpiar]

Yea you are mistaking Rick for me. And you are the first person to actually
make the correct argument. My positions on these subjects are very well
serving this forum ;). Like I said in previous mail though, the problem
isn’t with the musicians or with the composers using them; the problem is
with the industry. It's not the AFM that wont work with you to devalue their
members' lives. It’s the industry not allowing the budget for the music OR
it is you yourself promoting unrealistic product for low budgets

Someone coming to me to score a full length feature film for $10k or less
and is expecting a full symphonic orchestra playing the score is out of
their mind. I would absolutely do either a union chamber group or do a
synthetic score or sampled score and add a handful of live instruments. You
guys all want to make a career from your art but I'm telling you, taking a
10k job and saying ok to get a full orchestra on that budget you are
shooting yourself in the foot and the rest of us as much as those of us
accepting jobs with no up front money at all. Its just going to implode at
some point and we will be left with a memory and that’s all

-----Original Message-----
From: fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com
[mailto:fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com] On Behalf Of Michael S
Patterson
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 1:47 PM
To: fmpro at nxport.com
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] LSO isnt the eastern block

Rick,
I do admire your zeal for the betterment of musicians but
I think that you are making an argument that doesn¹t seem
to address the scope at hand.

What type of projects do you think are using the lower rated
Orchestras? 

>From my experiences, it been low budget films, promos, and maybe some
cable TV, not big budget films. These are projects can¹t afford
the union rates.

Doesn¹t the AFM have agreements with the studio and major networks?
Aren¹t those big budget films and network shows ³union gigs?²

I assume that you feel that priced out projects just shouldn¹t have live
musicians at all.

Do you think that any composer that is scoring low budget indie films
for $3,000, $5,000...$10,000 a pop is going to feel any sympathy for
musicians complaining about a $20-$25 an hour rate?

Now this is all coming from a composer who hasn¹t broken $20,000
a year for the last 5 years. I don¹t want sympathy, I choose
to work on these low budget films and be poor. I¹m going to work as hard
as I can for as long as I can and hope that one day I break thru.

The AFM has never been able to work with me on these projects and
in the beginning I tried. If I¹m getting no help from them why should
I have any loyalty to members of the AFM.

I actually now have much more loyalty to the musicians in Prague!
$20-$25 and hour in the Czech Republic is quite a good amount
of money over there...much more than the average worker.

There is also no reason for a composer not to go outside of
the AFM. I remember that whole thing with the Russian Orchestra
and K19 ­ The Widowmaker. The touring musicians got their visas
revoked and Klaus Badelt  didn¹t get black listed or anything.
And that whole thing was much more egregious than what we¹re
talking about.

You also make it seem as if there isn¹t already a glut of out of
work musicians. By offering a $100 a session rate for low budget
projects you don¹t effect the big budget films and you actually
create more work....I feel it¹s better than $0 which is what you¹re
getting right now for these projects.

The AFM and musicians have to understand that given that these
projects can¹t afford the union rates, they are going to have to
see that work go overseas. The AFM doesn¹t even seem to want this
Work anyway!

Give me a rate that I can work with and I¹ll hire you if not,
Jit jsem do prahy. (I¹ll go to Prague)

Michael S Patterson

 


On 9/13/07 12:48 AM, "Chris Alpiar" <chris at alpiar.com> wrote:

> [OK I am trying to learn from my critics and doing my best to continue
> feeding this most excellent discussion with provocative and positive
> argument and to not get lost on ego battles. I sincerely apologize to all
> for my goading of others, my unclear words, and where I have allowed
myself
> to succumb to goading lately. I care dearly about our betterment and any
> argument I pose is for its sake.]
> 
> Unions provide tremendous value to its members. As an AFM member I am
> entitled to many benefits, including free legal aid for issues related to
my
> union jobs. They spend tons of money lobbying issues on behalf of the
> musicians on an industry and governmental level. I have access to an
> emergency fund and a pension plan (which is unfortunately falling apart
> currently since it is still based on CD sales...). I have the power of all
> (or most) of the professional musicians in the USA organized together as a
> unified voice. As an example: With that power a violinist in Albuquerque
can
> get paid a reasonable salary or rate to have a decent life without being
in
> a Hollywood "A" orchestra. The AFM consists of literally hundreds of
> guarantees that I am to be treated with dignity and paid reasonably for
the
> very special and unique job that I do.
> 
> The union isn't some Jimmy Hoffa types with baseball bats who manipulate
on
> behalf of the masses in order to skim millions from magical slush funds.
> (While that sounds like certain non-union organizations it's not the AFM
or
> my vision of a composer's union) Of course every organization has issues,
> and the AFM is partnered with the AFL/CIO for better or for worse. But the
> AFM has maintained a really decent ethic and goal-set over the years. It
is
> a bit stodgy today and needs some serious overhaul to stay in line for the
> new age, but overall it is GOOD. It is made up of people that believe in
the
> goodness of music and musicians and want to help our society's members to
> all have respectful, decent lifestyles. My dues of $130 per year are
roughly
> the same as my dues to FMN per year. While I LOVE all the great things
that
> Mark does for us, his group for sure isn't offering anything remotely
close
> to the benefits the AFM has. (Hold on flamers, that statement wasn't
> anything negative towards FMN, Mark is one of my absolute favorite people
> who works tirelessly for us, but FMN still isn't a union, so it was just a
> comparison to show that union dues isn't some exorbitant extortion)
> 
> Someone dropped the LSO in a while back on this thread but really it has
> nothing to do with the issues at hand. I am absolutely positive you cannot
> book the LSO for 1900 an hour for a 50 piece including studio and
engineers
> and even copyists. It was not the LSO that was the meat of this
conversation
> but the eastern European and 3rd world orchestras, who, while all very
> excellent musicians, are allowing themselves to be abused with $20/hour
(and
> probably less then that even) salary and no backend. Once again it is not
> their fault, but it is wrong nonetheless. I wish we could have an
> international musicians union but since courts can't have international
> jurisdiction, it still must be dealt with nation by nation. In actuality
the
> root of all the weird problems we are suffering from today is that we have
> this massive, mostly open door, international deluge of data and products
> called the internet but our world is still governed country by country.
And
> of course the industry powers that be are milking it for every bit they
can.
> However that is another subject for another day.
> 
> But let me assure you, this discussion is about real issues Rick, and we
> have opportunity during this changing time to step up and do something
about
> it. What you suggest sounds like you gave up long ago. Every man for
himself
> and step on who you need to, that is the just the way it is and there
isn't
> anything I can do so Ill just live off the table scraps and nod my head.
The
> problem is that this trend of what is happening today isn't going to just
> stop; it's going to keep going on and on unless we do something about it.
> 
> Try to gestalt and see where we came from 50 years ago, where we are now,
> and where these trends are leading us. It's really scary! It is leading to
> orchestras eventually having to work for so little they can't afford to
keep
> the quality. At some point those amazing violinists and oboists will say
> "Screw this, I am going to be a pharmacist so I can feed my family" or
> whatever and then there will be no more orchestras. And there will be no
> more film score composers. And films will change and society will say ah
> that was cool when they used to blablabla but whatever this is here now
and
> it's what they feed me. (Just as 50 years ago people wouldn't have ever
> accepted what Gwen Steffani does on stage is music or anything music
> related, but more like some freak show stripper carnival act, but hey now
> she owns Billboard and Rolling Stone. Or how 3-6 Mafia won the OSCAR last
> year for the sad, sad excuse for a song with one hook and no other musical
> qualities, and it won against the music from Crash?!... Pardon while I get
> the TUMS)
> 
> Maybe that is ok with you; to let it all fall apart, since there will
> probably be some gigs still in YOUR lifetime, even if you wont get paid
the
> way you deserve you will probably still work it out. But what happens
after
> that? The first step in making change is to specify issues and create
> dialog. That is being overly-idealistic? That is wasting breath? I say
that
> it is up to you to choose what you want to see happen to our art and our
> livelihood. And the choices need to start being made now before it's too
> late. For me it is NOT ok for us to remain indifferent or ambivalent. I
> think the time for dialog is now and to prepare our goals and actions that
> make up our path for years to come, and ultimately our legacy
> 
> You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you
will
> join us. And the world will live as one (thanks Pete for making this song
> stick in my head for the last couple days! ;)
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com
> [mailto:fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com] On Behalf Of Rick Blanc
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 1:41 AM
> To: fmpro at nxport.com
> Subject: [Fmpro] LSO and stuff
> 
>  Producers have been using the LSO for many
>  years.  And why not?  First-class product,
>  reasonable pricing.  That's it.  All this noise
>  about union, what people deserve, world order
>  etc. is all just that -- noise.  I hate to be
>  the agent of disillusionment but does anyone out
>  there really think the union gives a damn about
>  YOU.  You live, you die, who cares?  The union
>  guys have their salaries to worry about.
> 
>  The way things work is really quite simple.
>   Companies need product, sometimes good
>  product.  If a union can stand in the way of
>  their need and their product they can extort
>  some more money, if not then they can't.
>   The landscape today weakens unions because they
>  can't prevent producers from getting the product
>  they want -- somewhere.
> 
>  All this idealism and utopianism is interesting
>  maybe, but has no impact on the fundamentals:
>  union bosses have their paychecks to worry about
>  and if YOU expire tomorrow you will be known as
>  union member #### whose dues will be missed.
>   Meanwhile business continues -- as it should --
>  and first-class orchestras and musicians
>  worldwide will work and compete in an
>  international marketplace.
> 
> Rick    
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