[Fmpro] FMPRO Digest, Vol 29, Issue 12

Fri Sep 14 15:07:27 GMT 2007

HI Jeff, if you have someone else no problem

B 

-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 8:01 AM
To: fmpro at nxport.com
Subject: FMPRO Digest, Vol 29, Issue 12

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FILM MUSIC PRO LIST - DIGEST VERSION

Today's Topics:

   1. Re: LSO and stuff (leshurdle)
   2. Re: LSO isnt the eastern block (leshurdle)
   3. Re: LSO isnt the eastern block (Pete)
   4. Unions and futures (Rick Blanc)
   5. Re: Unions and futures (Mike Vaccaro)
   6. Fw:  Unions and futures (Rick Blanc)
   7. Re: Unions and futures (Mike Vaccaro)
   8. Re: Unions and futures (Rick Blanc)
   9. Re: LSO isnt the eastern block (Chris Alpiar)
  10. Re: Unions and futures (Chris Alpiar)
  11. Re: LSO isnt the eastern block (Michael S Patterson)
  12.  LSO isnt the eastern block (Rick Blanc)
  13. Re: LSO isnt the eastern block (Tracey Larvenz)
  14. Re: LSO isnt the eastern block (Chris Alpiar)
  15. Re: Unions and futures (Chris Alpiar)
  16. Re: LSO isnt the eastern block (Jason Poss)
  17. Re: LSO isnt the eastern block (Michael S Patterson)
  18. Re: LSO isnt the eastern block (Michael S Patterson)
  19.  LSO isnt the eastern block (Rick Blanc)
  20. Re: LSO isnt the eastern block (Mike Vaccaro)
  21. Re: LSO isnt the eastern block (Michael S Patterson)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 06:56:44 -0700
From: leshurdle <leshurdle at avradionet.com>
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] LSO and stuff
To: Rick Blanc <pazuni at sbcglobal.net>, fmpro at nxport.com
Message-ID: <98062CC7-157E-4B1D-9537-E09562B380E7 at avradionet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=US-ASCII;	format=flowed

On Sep 12, 2007, at 10:41 PM, Rick Blanc wrote:

>  union bosses have their paychecks to worry about
>  and if YOU expire tomorrow you will be known as
>  union member ####

As is the case with PRO's etc.

L

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:01:05 -0700
From: leshurdle <leshurdle at avradionet.com>
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] LSO isnt the eastern block
To: fmpro at nxport.com
Message-ID: <50BC3462-8EEF-4CD8-966B-01E88DB7F72D at avradionet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=US-ASCII;	delsp=yes;
format=flowed

On Sep 13, 2007, at 12:48 AM, Chris Alpiar wrote:

>  They spend tons of money lobbying issues on behalf of the
> musicians on an industry and governmental level.

Chris,

Do those Union folk who travel to Washington go 1st class or coach,  
do they stay in a Motel 6?

It is all just 'business' and those with a paycheck are not there for  
your benefit, they are there to get a paycheck, maybe you will also  
benefit by them being there, but you [or anyone else] are not the  
main concern.

This has been proven time and time again re the PRO  
staff............  look at the PRO staff who are on this list... ever  
see one of them step up and put it on the line.. ha !

Yep, dream on ;-)

L

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:46:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Pete <musical411 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] LSO isnt the eastern block
To: fmpro at nxport.com
Message-ID: <94324.39502.qm at web53703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

--- Chris Alpiar wrote:
> You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
> I hope someday you will
> join us. And the world will live as one (thanks Pete
> for making this song
> stick in my head for the last couple days! ;)

You're welcome. :-)

I saw a documentary about Bakers who were all
undercutting each other to get business. It was so bad
that none of them were able to make a decent living.
So a guy came along and put them all under one
umbrella company and called them "National Biscuit
Company" (Later renamed "Nabisco"). Once they figured
out how to co-operate with each other, they all
thrived.

P e t e
S u r d o v a l

____________________________________________________________________________
________
Got a little couch potato? 
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&c
s=bz 

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:49:48 -0700
From: "Rick Blanc" <pazuni at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Fmpro] Unions and futures
To: <fmpro at nxport.com>, <chris at alpiar.com>
Message-ID: <002001c7f626$19b45fb0$4001a8c0 at RB1>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

We can all certainly enjoy our own beliefs and form our own philosophies of
what things mean; I'm just presenting mine.

I believe many unions, and maybe particularly the musician's union, are
anachronisms, like an army fighting the new war with the old battle plan.
Music as art will struggle through history as it generally has.  The music
"business" however is market driven.  And the marketplace is transnational.
Who is going to control it, and by what authority?

The idea that Eastern Europeans are "allowing themselves to be abused" for
$20/hr. is absurd.  First the obvious: what does $20 represent in buying
power in Bratismava compared to LA?  What did the last job that abused soul
have pay?  I worked in Vienna once with Bulgarian musicians who were being
paid so little (not an American company) they had to bring food with them in
their suitcases because they couldn't afford to eat on the Austrian economy.
I took a few of them out for McDonald's or Chinese and they were thrilled.
My point is these people are happy to work, and $20/hr. is a very decent
respectable wage that will help them improve their lives.  

As for American unions: they need, in my opinion, a new and different vision
to deal effectively with the future.  So far I see no evedence of any vision
at all.

Rick

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:55:03 -0700
From: "Mike Vaccaro" <mike at mikevaccaro.com>
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] Unions and futures
To: "Rick Blanc" <pazuni at sbcglobal.net>, <fmpro at nxport.com>
Message-ID: <000801c7f626$d4e11760$020ba8c0 at IBM8C7436CEFCA>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

Rick,

Do you have a suggestion for a new vision for American musicians and 
composers to deal with the future.

You have obviously given this a lot of thought.
Mike
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick Blanc" <pazuni at sbcglobal.net>
To: <fmpro at nxport.com>; <chris at alpiar.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:49 AM
Subject: [Fmpro] Unions and futures

> We can all certainly enjoy our own beliefs and form our own philosophies 
> of what things mean; I'm just presenting mine.
>
> I believe many unions, and maybe particularly the musician's union, are 
> anachronisms, like an army fighting the new war with the old battle plan. 
> Music as art will struggle through history as it generally has.  The music

> "business" however is market driven.  And the marketplace is 
> transnational.  Who is going to control it, and by what authority?
>
> The idea that Eastern Europeans are "allowing themselves to be abused" for

> $20/hr. is absurd.  First the obvious: what does $20 represent in buying 
> power in Bratismava compared to LA?  What did the last job that abused 
> soul have pay?  I worked in Vienna once with Bulgarian musicians who were 
> being paid so little (not an American company) they had to bring food with

> them in their suitcases because they couldn't afford to eat on the 
> Austrian economy.  I took a few of them out for McDonald's or Chinese and 
> they were thrilled.  My point is these people are happy to work, and 
> $20/hr. is a very decent respectable wage that will help them improve 
> their lives.
>
> As for American unions: they need, in my opinion, a new and different 
> vision to deal effectively with the future.  So far I see no evedence of 
> any vision at all.
>
> Rick
> _______________________________________________
> The Film Music Pro List is sponsored by Film Music Magazine - 
> http://www.filmmusicmag.com
>
> To edit your list options or unsubscribe, visit:
> http://nxport.com/mailman/listinfo/fmpro 

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:11:07 -0700
From: "Rick Blanc" <pazuni at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Fmpro] Fw:  Unions and futures
To: <fmpro at nxport.com>
Message-ID: <000501c7f629$13de5b60$4001a8c0 at RB1>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=response

I still have trouble figuring out how to post and get things
in the right place.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick Blanc" <pazuni at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Mike Vaccaro" <mike at mikevaccaro.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] Unions and futures

> Mike,
>
> That is the question.  I have more analysis and questions than answers 
> that's for sure.  One of the problems here in LA is that the union is 
> enforcing the RMA policy of "no buy-outs anytime for any reason."  This is

> making it difficult for local musicians to be competitive internationally.

> It is an unsustainable policy and destructive to the business long-term, 
> in my opinion.  It continues, obviously, because of the money stream. 
> Turn that faucet off and the union collapses.
>
> Which leads me to what I think is the answer, however non-ideal.  We have 
> to work and compete in the global marketplace.  Market forces make 
> decisions. With the new technologies "local" doesn't mean anything 
> anymore.   From this perspective I think less market interference by 
> unions is better than more. Chances are there will be a smaller pie 
> whatever happens.
>
> Rick 

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:33:02 -0700
From: "Mike Vaccaro" <mike at mikevaccaro.com>
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] Unions and futures
To: "Rick Blanc" <pazuni at sbcglobal.net>, <fmpro at nxport.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c7f62c$231ebf40$020ba8c0 at IBM8C7436CEFCA>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=response

I think it will be very interesting to see if there is a AFM International 
Convention three years from now. Believe me they are not protecting the live

music performers either (they now allow Virtual Orchestra) and are making 
deals to undercut all CBA's.

Mike
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick Blanc" <pazuni at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Mike Vaccaro" <mike at mikevaccaro.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 10:27 AM
Subject: Fw: [Fmpro] Unions and futures

> Mike, you might have sent me this in error, but to comment: I quit the 
> union about a year ago in protest, and as you say everyone is in survival 
> mode anyway.  This trend will more than likely only continue.  The union 
> may continue to play a role in "live" music, but will probably 
> increasingly lose control of recorded music.
> Rick
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Vaccaro" <mike at mikevaccaro.com>
> To: "Rick Blanc" <pazuni at sbcglobal.net>
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 10:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [Fmpro] Unions and futures
>
>
>> Why don't you just do it non union. The New Era Scoring musicians don't 
>> seem to be doing a good enough job and even the busiest musicians on the 
>> best lists are doing cash dates.
>>
>> I don't think it is all that big of a problem. Probably should not offer 
>> $50 an hour for a cash date though. That's an insult. It is union scale 
>> for low budget pictures. No one wants to work for that. You could teach 
>> little kids in your pajamas at home for that and never leave the house 
>> (if one could possibly stand teaching).
>>
>> Mike
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Rick Blanc" <pazuni at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "Mike Vaccaro" <mike at mikevaccaro.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 10:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Fmpro] Unions and futures
>>
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> That is the question.  I have more analysis and questions than answers 
>>> that's for sure.  One of the problems here in LA is that the union is 
>>> enforcing the RMA policy of "no buy-outs anytime for any reason."  This 
>>> is making it difficult for local musicians to be competitive 
>>> internationally. It is an unsustainable policy and destructive to the 
>>> business long-term, in my opinion.  It continues, obviously, because of 
>>> the money stream. Turn that faucet off and the union collapses.
>>>
>>> Which leads me to what I think is the answer, however non-ideal.  We 
>>> have to work and compete in the global marketplace.  Market forces make 
>>> decisions. With the new technologies "local" doesn't mean anything 
>>> anymore.   From this perspective I think less market interference by 
>>> unions is better than more. Chances are there will be a smaller pie 
>>> whatever happens.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>
> 

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:39:00 -0700
From: "Rick Blanc" <pazuni at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] Unions and futures
To: <fmpro at nxport.com>, "Mike Vaccaro" <mike at mikevaccaro.com>
Message-ID: <001401c7f62c$f8babcd0$4001a8c0 at RB1>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=response

They are trying to plug the leaks in the dyke -- but there is a big
 storm bearing down...

Rick

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:46:02 -0400
From: "Chris Alpiar" <chris at alpiar.com>
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] LSO isnt the eastern block
To: <fmpro at nxport.com>
Message-ID: <003801c7f62d$f4b9b180$6701a8c0 at workhorse>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Well Les, as far as how lobbyists live, I would say as long as they get the
job done and represent properly the issues for which they are hired I could
care less if they were carried on a palette by gnome concubines. In order to
hobnob and break bread and issues with the power elite they need the tools
to play the part and to live the part. So personally if they travel first
class on my dollar to complete their inner picture of themselves as
hi-roller negotiators, that's fine by me, AS LONG AS they really are getting
the job done and not just OH sorry guys it didn't go well this time, but
thanks for the stay at the Ritz and the $200 dinners. When parleying with
senators and the richest industry bigwigs, there is value to playing that
part. It's all about being reasonable and having your members in mind first
in my opinion. Obviously the musicians union can't throw parties on the
scale of the dot com boomers, but to have a representative buying dinner for
a Massachusetts senator at Maison Robert in Boston for $600 is surely worth
it if he gains a swing vote on an important issue. Of course I don't like it
but it's the sacrifice to communicate with those types. Also I would think
that kind of lobbying needs to be accountable to the members, but maybe that
is a pipe-dream. I don't know enough about professional lobbying or politics
to know these kinds of answers

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com
[mailto:fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com] On Behalf Of leshurdle
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 10:01 AM
To: fmpro at nxport.com
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] LSO isnt the eastern block

On Sep 13, 2007, at 12:48 AM, Chris Alpiar wrote:

>  They spend tons of money lobbying issues on behalf of the
> musicians on an industry and governmental level.

Chris,

Do those Union folk who travel to Washington go 1st class or coach,  
do they stay in a Motel 6?

It is all just 'business' and those with a paycheck are not there for  
your benefit, they are there to get a paycheck, maybe you will also  
benefit by them being there, but you [or anyone else] are not the  
main concern.

This has been proven time and time again re the PRO  
staff............  look at the PRO staff who are on this list... ever  
see one of them step up and put it on the line.. ha !

Yep, dream on ;-)

L

_______________________________________________
The Film Music Pro List is sponsored by Film Music Magazine -
http://www.filmmusicmag.com

To edit your list options or unsubscribe, visit:
http://nxport.com/mailman/listinfo/fmpro

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:48:16 -0400
From: "Chris Alpiar" <chris at alpiar.com>
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] Unions and futures
To: "'Rick Blanc'" <pazuni at sbcglobal.net>, <fmpro at nxport.com>
Message-ID: <003901c7f62e$43a083f0$6701a8c0 at workhorse>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

That's exactly the reason why we need to sort out what WE want, and how WE
want composer's to grow and prosper. Forget the failings of the current
unions because we have this amazing opportunity to start now with full
understanding of modern technology and modern politics. We do it now or we
drown in the flood

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com
[mailto:fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com] On Behalf Of Rick Blanc
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 1:39 PM
To: fmpro at nxport.com; Mike Vaccaro
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] Unions and futures

They are trying to plug the leaks in the dyke -- but there is a big
 storm bearing down...

Rick
_______________________________________________
The Film Music Pro List is sponsored by Film Music Magazine -
http://www.filmmusicmag.com

To edit your list options or unsubscribe, visit:
http://nxport.com/mailman/listinfo/fmpro

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:46:58 -0700
From: Michael S Patterson <doc_absynthe at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] LSO isnt the eastern block
To: <fmpro at nxport.com>
Message-ID: <C30EC5A2.3B75%doc_absynthe at yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="ISO-8859-1"

Rick,
I do admire your zeal for the betterment of musicians but
I think that you are making an argument that doesn?t seem
to address the scope at hand.

What type of projects do you think are using the lower rated
Orchestras? 

>From my experiences, it been low budget films, promos, and maybe some
cable TV, not big budget films. These are projects can?t afford
the union rates.

Doesn?t the AFM have agreements with the studio and major networks?
Aren?t those big budget films and network shows ?union gigs??

I assume that you feel that priced out projects just shouldn?t have live
musicians at all.

Do you think that any composer that is scoring low budget indie films
for $3,000, $5,000...$10,000 a pop is going to feel any sympathy for
musicians complaining about a $20-$25 an hour rate?

Now this is all coming from a composer who hasn?t broken $20,000
a year for the last 5 years. I don?t want sympathy, I choose
to work on these low budget films and be poor. I?m going to work as hard
as I can for as long as I can and hope that one day I break thru.

The AFM has never been able to work with me on these projects and
in the beginning I tried. If I?m getting no help from them why should
I have any loyalty to members of the AFM.

I actually now have much more loyalty to the musicians in Prague!
$20-$25 and hour in the Czech Republic is quite a good amount
of money over there...much more than the average worker.

There is also no reason for a composer not to go outside of
the AFM. I remember that whole thing with the Russian Orchestra
and K19 ? The Widowmaker. The touring musicians got their visas
revoked and Klaus Badelt  didn?t get black listed or anything.
And that whole thing was much more egregious than what we?re
talking about.

You also make it seem as if there isn?t already a glut of out of
work musicians. By offering a $100 a session rate for low budget
projects you don?t effect the big budget films and you actually
create more work....I feel it?s better than $0 which is what you?re
getting right now for these projects.

The AFM and musicians have to understand that given that these
projects can?t afford the union rates, they are going to have to
see that work go overseas. The AFM doesn?t even seem to want this
Work anyway!

Give me a rate that I can work with and I?ll hire you if not,
Jit jsem do prahy. (I?ll go to Prague)

Michael S Patterson

On 9/13/07 12:48 AM, "Chris Alpiar" <chris at alpiar.com> wrote:

> [OK I am trying to learn from my critics and doing my best to continue
> feeding this most excellent discussion with provocative and positive
> argument and to not get lost on ego battles. I sincerely apologize to all
> for my goading of others, my unclear words, and where I have allowed
myself
> to succumb to goading lately. I care dearly about our betterment and any
> argument I pose is for its sake.]
> 
> Unions provide tremendous value to its members. As an AFM member I am
> entitled to many benefits, including free legal aid for issues related to
my
> union jobs. They spend tons of money lobbying issues on behalf of the
> musicians on an industry and governmental level. I have access to an
> emergency fund and a pension plan (which is unfortunately falling apart
> currently since it is still based on CD sales...). I have the power of all
> (or most) of the professional musicians in the USA organized together as a
> unified voice. As an example: With that power a violinist in Albuquerque
can
> get paid a reasonable salary or rate to have a decent life without being
in
> a Hollywood "A" orchestra. The AFM consists of literally hundreds of
> guarantees that I am to be treated with dignity and paid reasonably for
the
> very special and unique job that I do.
> 
> The union isn't some Jimmy Hoffa types with baseball bats who manipulate
on
> behalf of the masses in order to skim millions from magical slush funds.
> (While that sounds like certain non-union organizations it's not the AFM
or
> my vision of a composer's union) Of course every organization has issues,
> and the AFM is partnered with the AFL/CIO for better or for worse. But the
> AFM has maintained a really decent ethic and goal-set over the years. It
is
> a bit stodgy today and needs some serious overhaul to stay in line for the
> new age, but overall it is GOOD. It is made up of people that believe in
the
> goodness of music and musicians and want to help our society's members to
> all have respectful, decent lifestyles. My dues of $130 per year are
roughly
> the same as my dues to FMN per year. While I LOVE all the great things
that
> Mark does for us, his group for sure isn't offering anything remotely
close
> to the benefits the AFM has. (Hold on flamers, that statement wasn't
> anything negative towards FMN, Mark is one of my absolute favorite people
> who works tirelessly for us, but FMN still isn't a union, so it was just a
> comparison to show that union dues isn't some exorbitant extortion)
> 
> Someone dropped the LSO in a while back on this thread but really it has
> nothing to do with the issues at hand. I am absolutely positive you cannot
> book the LSO for 1900 an hour for a 50 piece including studio and
engineers
> and even copyists. It was not the LSO that was the meat of this
conversation
> but the eastern European and 3rd world orchestras, who, while all very
> excellent musicians, are allowing themselves to be abused with $20/hour
(and
> probably less then that even) salary and no backend. Once again it is not
> their fault, but it is wrong nonetheless. I wish we could have an
> international musicians union but since courts can't have international
> jurisdiction, it still must be dealt with nation by nation. In actuality
the
> root of all the weird problems we are suffering from today is that we have
> this massive, mostly open door, international deluge of data and products
> called the internet but our world is still governed country by country.
And
> of course the industry powers that be are milking it for every bit they
can.
> However that is another subject for another day.
> 
> But let me assure you, this discussion is about real issues Rick, and we
> have opportunity during this changing time to step up and do something
about
> it. What you suggest sounds like you gave up long ago. Every man for
himself
> and step on who you need to, that is the just the way it is and there
isn't
> anything I can do so Ill just live off the table scraps and nod my head.
The
> problem is that this trend of what is happening today isn't going to just
> stop; it's going to keep going on and on unless we do something about it.
> 
> Try to gestalt and see where we came from 50 years ago, where we are now,
> and where these trends are leading us. It's really scary! It is leading to
> orchestras eventually having to work for so little they can't afford to
keep
> the quality. At some point those amazing violinists and oboists will say
> "Screw this, I am going to be a pharmacist so I can feed my family" or
> whatever and then there will be no more orchestras. And there will be no
> more film score composers. And films will change and society will say ah
> that was cool when they used to blablabla but whatever this is here now
and
> it's what they feed me. (Just as 50 years ago people wouldn't have ever
> accepted what Gwen Steffani does on stage is music or anything music
> related, but more like some freak show stripper carnival act, but hey now
> she owns Billboard and Rolling Stone. Or how 3-6 Mafia won the OSCAR last
> year for the sad, sad excuse for a song with one hook and no other musical
> qualities, and it won against the music from Crash?!... Pardon while I get
> the TUMS)
> 
> Maybe that is ok with you; to let it all fall apart, since there will
> probably be some gigs still in YOUR lifetime, even if you wont get paid
the
> way you deserve you will probably still work it out. But what happens
after
> that? The first step in making change is to specify issues and create
> dialog. That is being overly-idealistic? That is wasting breath? I say
that
> it is up to you to choose what you want to see happen to our art and our
> livelihood. And the choices need to start being made now before it's too
> late. For me it is NOT ok for us to remain indifferent or ambivalent. I
> think the time for dialog is now and to prepare our goals and actions that
> make up our path for years to come, and ultimately our legacy
> 
> You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you
will
> join us. And the world will live as one (thanks Pete for making this song
> stick in my head for the last couple days! ;)
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com
> [mailto:fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com] On Behalf Of Rick Blanc
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 1:41 AM
> To: fmpro at nxport.com
> Subject: [Fmpro] LSO and stuff
> 
>  Producers have been using the LSO for many
>  years.  And why not?  First-class product,
>  reasonable pricing.  That's it.  All this noise
>  about union, what people deserve, world order
>  etc. is all just that -- noise.  I hate to be
>  the agent of disillusionment but does anyone out
>  there really think the union gives a damn about
>  YOU.  You live, you die, who cares?  The union
>  guys have their salaries to worry about.
> 
>  The way things work is really quite simple.
>   Companies need product, sometimes good
>  product.  If a union can stand in the way of
>  their need and their product they can extort
>  some more money, if not then they can't.
>   The landscape today weakens unions because they
>  can't prevent producers from getting the product
>  they want -- somewhere.
> 
>  All this idealism and utopianism is interesting
>  maybe, but has no impact on the fundamentals:
>  union bosses have their paychecks to worry about
>  and if YOU expire tomorrow you will be known as
>  union member #### whose dues will be missed.
>   Meanwhile business continues -- as it should --
>  and first-class orchestras and musicians
>  worldwide will work and compete in an
>  international marketplace.
> 
> Rick    
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------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:55:27 -0700
From: "Rick Blanc" <pazuni at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Fmpro]  LSO isnt the eastern block
To: <fmpro at nxport.com>
Message-ID: <000701c7f62f$45286700$4001a8c0 at RB1>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Mike,

I think you have me confused with Chris.  I hear
 you, and agree with your position.

Rick

------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:12:40 -0700
From: Tracey Larvenz <tlarvenz at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] LSO isnt the eastern block
To: fmpro at nxport.com
Message-ID: <F76B03E9-FF4B-4975-8FC0-461E82B40BEA at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
	format=flowed

Hi Michael!

I just wanted to point out that while you don't affect the big budget  
films immediately, you probably will be doing so down the line.  As  
you know, most directors don't start off with a $200 million dollar  
budget, they start off as a low budget director.  If he's able to get  
a good or even great sounding score at a much lower rate, why would  
he opt to spend more when he has the budget?  He tells the studio,  
"Well I can save a few million here by using the Prague orchestra."   
He looks better to the studios and if it works out, the studios may  
begin to DEMAND that ALL their directors use orchestras outside of  
the USA.  At that point your switching the work from people who were  
making a living in the US as session players to the people who don't  
require as much money to make a decent living in Prague.  You're not  
really creating more work, just shifting it to people who will work  
for less.  If the project can't afford film stock or telecine   
transfer costs, they'd just push back the production until they could  
afford it.  Why should the music be any different?

Tracey Larvenz
www.melodiousthunk.net

On Sep 13, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Michael S Patterson wrote:

>
> You also make it seem as if there isn?t already a glut of out of
> work musicians. By offering a $100 a session rate for low budget
> projects you don?t effect the big budget films and you actually
> create more work....I feel it?s better than $0 which is what you?re
> getting right now for these projects.
>
> The AFM and musicians have to understand that given that these
> projects can?t afford the union rates, they are going to have to
> see that work go overseas. The AFM doesn?t even seem to want this
> Work anyway!
>
> Give me a rate that I can work with and I?ll hire you if not,
> Jit jsem do prahy. (I?ll go to Prague)
>
> Michael S Patterson
>

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:25:28 -0400
From: "Chris Alpiar" <chris at alpiar.com>
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] LSO isnt the eastern block
To: <fmpro at nxport.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c7f633$76542720$6701a8c0 at workhorse>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Yea you are mistaking Rick for me. And you are the first person to actually
make the correct argument. My positions on these subjects are very well
serving this forum ;). Like I said in previous mail though, the problem
isn?t with the musicians or with the composers using them; the problem is
with the industry. It's not the AFM that wont work with you to devalue their
members' lives. It?s the industry not allowing the budget for the music OR
it is you yourself promoting unrealistic product for low budgets

Someone coming to me to score a full length feature film for $10k or less
and is expecting a full symphonic orchestra playing the score is out of
their mind. I would absolutely do either a union chamber group or do a
synthetic score or sampled score and add a handful of live instruments. You
guys all want to make a career from your art but I'm telling you, taking a
10k job and saying ok to get a full orchestra on that budget you are
shooting yourself in the foot and the rest of us as much as those of us
accepting jobs with no up front money at all. Its just going to implode at
some point and we will be left with a memory and that?s all

-----Original Message-----
From: fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com
[mailto:fmpro-bounces+chris=alpiar.com at nxport.com] On Behalf Of Michael S
Patterson
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 1:47 PM
To: fmpro at nxport.com
Subject: Re: [Fmpro] LSO isnt the eastern block

Rick,
I do admire your zeal for the betterment of musicians but
I think that you are making an argument that doesn?t seem
to address the scope at hand.

What type of projects do you think are using the lower rated
Orchestras? 

>From my experiences, it been low budget films, promos, and maybe some
cable TV, not big budget films. These are projects can?t afford
the union rates.