[Fmpro] FMPRO Latest Rant: "Where are the Distinctive Voicesinscoring?"

Sun Jun 1 20:53:46 GMT 2008

Ted,

I am a bit confused about your Mussorgsky example,
Ravel and Rimsky Korsakov are two of the most capable orchestrators
of the last centuries, but the original Mussorgsky piano version
is still a brilliant piece of music. So what does that say about the crucial
role of the orchestrator?

Furthermore, Stravinsky 'extracted' 4- and 2-piano versions of the Sacre and
Petrouchka which are very musical....

Maybe some of Ravel's own orchestrated piano pieces prove your point better,
Une barque sur L'ocean or Alborada del Gracioso spring to mind, but those
still have pretty impressive originals.

I always do my own orchestrations, and I do agree that it is an inseparable
part of the composition process, but I don't think a bad piece of piano
score can easily be turned into a great piece of music by clever
orchestration.

I wouldn't call John Williams' music quite as innovative as Bach's
or Beethoven's music by the way, not by far, but it's not a valid
comparison, he should be compared to programmatic composers such as Wagner,
Puccini or Verdi, and even that is a bit unfair since the form and style
constraints of filmmusic are much narrower.

John Williams is just a very capable craftsman with quite a melodic gift,
which is an important musical asset in my book.

Han Otten

On 6/1/08 7:03 AM, "Ted Peterson" <ted.peterson at tcsn.net> wrote:

> Let's take Williams. If you look at the credits for Catch Me if You
> Can, you see some interesting things. This is why I took such issue
> with your statements. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion
> however it may be. The music world is on of style, acceptance and
> other such non-musical issues. However, I find your
> overgeneralizations to be the same I have heard from great masses of
> ignorant posers who want to sound impressive. If your opinions come
> from a graduate course centered on Bach, I would be surprised. The
> courses I took stripped the simple explanations away and we were
> encouraged to get an accurate reading of a composer's time both
> socially and musically and how that composer was appreciated or not
> in his/her time and after.
> 
> Of course, most of the time, a fascination with the past wasn't quite
> as prominent as it is in our time. Many scholars consider Ockeghem to
> be a better composer than Bach but the music is too far removed from
> our aesthetic to be appreciated in a general level. So Bach, aside
> from being a genius, was writing in a way that we still find value in
> studying because so much of our music is a reflection of what he was
> doing.
> 
> But back to the credits. There are some listings here that lead me to
> place Williams and other decent composers on a lower tier than say,
> Tomasino Albinoni. If you look down the list I have provided below,
> you see some interesting job assignments.  First, let's look at the
> scoring crew. There are no less than 5 people doing something with
> the score which may have been something as simple as a piano score or
> a mockup with instrumental suggestions. We don't know. Then we have a
> couple of orchestrators. I have worked with some pretty good
> orchestrators and have worked on some things myself. So I know how
> much an orchestrator can add to the overall "sound" of a piece of
> music. A simple piece that is well orchestrated sounds a lot better
> than a great piece but poorly orchestrated. The whole "Pictures at an
> Exhibition" is a good example. We have the Mussorgsky piano score,
> some of his orchestrations, the Ravel orchestrations and the Rimsky-
> Korsakov orchestrations so we have a lot of things to compare all
> based on the same music. It's a good piece for study just because of
> all of these elements around it.
> 
> Now, orchestration and a composer's choice of instruments,
> instrumental color and tone can define the composer as much as the
> music in the sense of notes. I have worked on some absolutely horrid
> scores that are little more than melodic lines with some suggestions
> of basic harmonies and have watched as good orchestrators make a
> quite stunning piece of music. So do I call this the product of the
> composer or the orchestrator?
> 
> I think that a composer like Stravinsky, or Beethoven or Mendelssohn
> are better composers than Williams will ever hope to be. For a
> contemporary look, take a sample of the works of Elliot Carter.
> Absolutely wonderful and incredibly inventive. Or take Hans Werner
> Henze. I can post a hundred names who are really expanding the
> musical art in a way that Williams, as good as he is, can only copy.
> Not to mention the amount of "classical" music he uses as the genesis
> of some of his music. However, I do find his music effective as
> supporting material for a primarily visual experience. Mozart also
> wrote music for visual programmes and Shikaneder was adept at staging
> wonderful fantasies of which "The Magic Flute" is the most notable.
> But the music for the play in the form of an opera is certainly on a
> level that Williams cannot approach through a system of sound cues.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. The music for "Jaws" and the themes are really
> effective. They have become cultural Icons that have transcended the
> film and have become part of our culture. But as a purely musical
> expression, an effective background theme is hardly "The Queen of the
> Night."
> 
> I wonder if "The Rite of Spring" would have the same impact if
> Stravinsky hired a crew of orchestrators to orchestrate his dual
> piano score.
> 
> 
> Here are the credits:
> 
> Music Department
> Ramiro Belgardt
> ....
> assistant music editor
> Sandy DeCrescent
> ....
> orchestra contractor
> Mark Eshelman
> ....
> scoring crew
> Alan Estes
> ....
> musician: vibraphone solos
> Dan Higgins
> ....
> musician: saxophone solos
> Todd Homme
> ....
> music executive
> Jason Lloyd
> ....
> scoring crew
> Susan McLean
> ....
> scoring crew (as Sue McLean)
> Adam Michalak
> ....
> scoring crew
> Shawn Murphy
> ....
> music scoring mixer
> John Neufeld
> ....
> orchestrator
> Kenneth Wannberg
> ....
> music editor (as Ken Wannberg)
> Pat Weber
> ....
> scoring crew (as Patrick Weber)
> Karen Bennett
> ....
> assistant music editor (uncredited)
> Mark Graham
> ....
> music copyist (uncredited)
> Conrad Pope
> ....
> orchestrator (uncredited)
> John Williams
> ....
> conductor (uncredited)
> On May 31, 2008, at 7:10 PM, Alain Mayrand wrote:
> 
> Ted Peterson
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